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MaseratiForumMaserati Cars3200GT, 4200 Coupe/Spyder, GranSport Endfloat, more questions.

Endfloat, more questions.

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12/2/2008 15:47:07  
 

Posts: 713
Since: 12/3/2007
Region: Hampshire
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There's a number of recent posts referring to the dreaded endfloat problem so, having got me totally paranoid, I just re-read this thread to try and get a more informed perspective:

http://www.maseratiforum.co.uk/tm.asp?m=8137&mpage=1&key=endfloat&#8159

Plenty of well informed food for thought there, but still not 100% certainty of the cause (thrust bearings/oil specification/etc).

A quick web search throws up a number of manual cars for sale with highish mileages where multiple owners and varying degrees of service might be more prevalent, yet they are seemingly unaffected, unless of course remedial work has already been undertaken. 

If the problem is due to soft thrust washers you might expect mileage and driver technique to influence wear rates (hence the reduced incidence on autos). If it's lubrication then sump samples could be revealing, but failures should then affect autos just as much as manuals. I don't wish to offend any of the very knowedgeable folk who have posted their thoughts on this, but when there are differences of opinion the only way to settle things once and for all might be to take a well defined scientific approach that considers then eliminates each aspect until the true cuplrit remains.

Does anyone here know of an engine that has been subject to preventative mechanical work, such as monitoring endfloat over a period of time or replacing 'soft' thrust washers before they failed (and if so with what)? Has oil analysis ever been considered by anyone?

My apologies if I've mssed the answers elsewhere.

PH

(Now off to find some Vallium)
12/2/2008 17:26:16  

Posts: 1677
Since: 22/12/2006
Region: Chichester, West Sussex
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The endfloat is 100% caused by the pull clutch. That is why there is the same thrust washer at the front of the crank (same part number) as is found at the back of the crank, and only the rear one ever fails. This is because the pull clutch squshes the rear thrust washer into the block.
13/2/2008 8:31:23  

Posts: 705
Since: 16/3/2007
Region: Bristol
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Hi Matt,
Is this a preventable situation then - ie through inspection of the pull clutch/thrust washer?
Cheers,
Pat

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06 GranSport (FD ECM, DBW, springs, filter, ProSpeed pipes)
13/2/2008 9:16:45  

Posts: 1677
Since: 22/12/2006
Region: Chichester, West Sussex
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You can have it checked, but once its wearing, other than having the rebuild and mod done, nothing else really you can do.

A main dealer will check it for you, it basically involves attaching a DTI micrometer to the front crank pulley, then getting a pry bar under the flywheel, turning the engine over manually, then pinging the pry bar. This will cause the front pulley to jump if wear is apparent, the the DTI measures just how much your endfloat is. Recommended endfloat is .15-.2 mm, mine was .97 mm and having oil pressure problems after an oil change. Before the oil change, it was fine, well, 3.5 bar hot idle.

The new thin oil (Selina) showed the problem up.
13/2/2008 12:50:39  
Rob

Posts: 233
Since: 9/10/2006
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Agreed that any thoughts/additional words of wisdom/path to the true cause on this subject v welcome. Autoshield have measured my end float and all seems OK. My car is a manual 2001 on 39K (3200 of course), have been told to avoid keeping the clutch depressed for long periods of time (i.e. in traffic etc) and DONT start the car with the clutch depressed (as instructed in the drivers manual), running the motor low on oil seems a common idea for cause also......(these engines are well known for high oil use, however, my car does not seem to burn much oil!!

Just a thought..... but I always alow my car to warm up (oil temp) before driving/esp. driving hard, motorcycle style....any thoughts welcome, ROB
13/2/2008 15:52:38  
 

Posts: 713
Since: 12/3/2007
Region: Hampshire
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Conaero

Crankshaft endfloat is the symptom not the cause, and there seem to be two main schools of thought on the latter.

Firstly, lubrication: Either the wrong grade of oil is used, or the crank/thrust washers are loaded before the oil has circulated. Both could lead to accelerated wear. Unless I’ve missed something you might then expect the problem to affect autos and manuals, which many folk say is not the case.

Secondly engine build quality: It may be that the crankshaft/thrust configuration is inadequate, the materials are too soft as you originally suggested, or there were quality problems during assembly. I can understand that affecting manuals more than autos but, if true, what is the difference between removed (failed) components and the replacement items; were harder thrust washers used, or the crank/thrust assembly redesigned? And have there been further failures on ‘rectified’ engines?

Whilst imho it would be stupid to risk incorrect or cheap oil in such an engine, my gut feeling is that this is more about the properties of metal used, particularly for the thrust washers. Whether that was by design (poor specification) or manufacture (poor quality) we can only guess, but I’ll bet Maserati know.

I believe that some cars were rectified under Maserati warranty, although internet chat suggests that the company has since been reluctant to discuss the subject directly or via its dealer network. If that’s true it’s not very clever PR. I can understand them protecting their balance sheet, but how do you put a price on reputation? 


PH
14/2/2008 3:08:51  


Posts: 2135
Since: 11/5/2005
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For what it is worth, what is recorded here seems to make sense but whilst it is likely to be poor specification it is unlikely to be poor design or manufacture. Maserati have enjoyed an enviable reputation for engine building ever since they set the factory up.....even in the dark years of the Bi Turbo era! It is a real downer that the last Maserati designed engine (the 4200 is a Ferrari designed and manufactured) is beginning to look so weak, especially in manual configuration...you would think they would want to make some sort of contribution for reputation sake. The more so when the marketing and sales has done so well year on year for the recent history.

Just a thought but those of you that have suffered or are suffering now maybe should create a register / petition and lobby Maserati collectively direct. The Dealerships will do their best for clients, no doubt, but have to toe the corporate line eventually.

Maybe open up a seperate heading on the main Forum page.....What say you guys....ask Gavin if you think it will help?

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"Maser Malc"!!
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14/2/2008 3:30:18  

Posts: 1677
Since: 22/12/2006
Region: Chichester, West Sussex
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thanks for your comments guys.

In response to Phil H, I like your route of thinking. The new washer I am having fitted is made from Phosphorus Bronze or something, basically, it will last the distance plus it is pinned in place (the two half moon washers) so they cant spin round on each other. I understand about oil, and mine only ever had Selina (to my knowledge) in it. On having it serviced, the oil was very poor, which means that the dealer who sold it to the dealer I bought it from, lied about servicing it and just stamped the book. I go very easy on this car and never start the car with the clutch down or hold it on it.

In response to Malcolm H, I commend your enthusiasm and sure lets give the petition ago, but I fear it will fall on deaf ears.
14/2/2008 3:56:43  

Posts: 4164
Since: 5/6/2007
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Just might be a good idea to Ask VBird/Nigelo to head up the lobbying, Vbird posted before that he has a history in lobbying for exactly this type of thing , and their combined  knowledge on the 3200 is top notch, surely thats what we all do this for to help one another i.d be game to help in any way that i could

Just a thought

Regards loz


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Old pompous spods current stable
52 plate 4200 cc Lowered Tubi's and full GS body kit,steering wheel and rack
55 plate 4200 cc Gransport Full Larini system,AP Racing big brake upgrade ,more stuff pending

14/2/2008 4:52:02  

Posts: 705
Since: 16/3/2007
Region: Bristol
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How common is the endfloat problem? I'm considering going back to a 3200GT, but if this is something that is getting more and more common as the model approaches its 10th birthday, then I may be scared off and just stick with what I have.

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06 GranSport (FD ECM, DBW, springs, filter, ProSpeed pipes)
14/2/2008 5:05:12  

Posts: 1677
Since: 22/12/2006
Region: Chichester, West Sussex
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I am selling mine at the end of this year, it is very, very well sorted (or will be) and you have the knowledge that it has no rust, and has had the crank mod done plus:

Wishbones
Clutch
Brakes
Acuators
Crank Mod
Rear Shoes
Larini Exhaust
Cambelt

Want to do a PX? Why are you considering going back?

14/2/2008 5:19:25  

Posts: 4164
Since: 5/6/2007
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Conaero just sent you a mail have a looksee,and let me know


Regards loz


_____________________________

Old pompous spods current stable
52 plate 4200 cc Lowered Tubi's and full GS body kit,steering wheel and rack
55 plate 4200 cc Gransport Full Larini system,AP Racing big brake upgrade ,more stuff pending

14/2/2008 12:43:37  
 

Posts: 29
Since: 14/2/2008
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Hi all, two points of interest in this thread. One the original thrust washers cannot move - One half has a locating tab and as such cannot move.

Secondly, the 4200 engine is a maserati engine and Not a ferrari engine - The engine was designed by Maserati and built but ferrari took it and adapted it for their own benefit.
14/2/2008 13:25:17  


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Since: 11/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wicked1

Hi all, two points of interest in this thread. One the original thrust washers cannot move - One half has a locating tab and as such cannot move.

Secondly, the 4200 engine is a maserati engine and Not a ferrari engine - The engine was designed by Maserati and built but ferrari took it and adapted it for their own benefit.


Hmmmm,

First welcome to the forum.

But sorry can't agree with your interesting opinion.....don't think anyone specifically said the original washer can turn...just the replacement can't?

However, the 4200 was designed with Maserati under Ferrari ownership and the engine is a redevelopment of the Ferrari 90Deg V8 360 3568cc that has a bore & stroke of 85 x 79 and red lined at 8500 compared to the 4200's 92 x 80. Apart from the likelyhood for Ferrari to put it's reputation on the line manufacturing external designs for other marques, the same engine is used in the F430 with the bore & stroke altered and remapped to give 483bhp 343nm and a red line at 8500 instead of the 390bhp 333nm and redline at 7600. It may have been "co-designed" / modified for the "baby" / "entry level" Ferrari as it was seen at the time(next model up was £110K, £40K dearer at the time) but it is very definately a Ferrari item the point being to reduce development costs. Also the transaxle F1 box is of course Ferrari from a 360 which is why the the critiscm its get is so risible!

_____________________________

"Maser Malc"!!
4200 Spyder CC
Ghibli ABS
Mercedes ML320
www.essentialimages.co.uk



14/2/2008 13:37:18  

Posts: 705
Since: 16/3/2007
Region: Bristol
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: conaero

Want to do a PX? Why are you considering going back?



Hey Matt, I was considering the move back to the 3200 because I miss both the turbo rush, and having a manual box. I was interested in an Assetto Corsa, since they have a handling pack and just seem to be the finished article of this classic GT.

But, having read the increasing commonness of the end float problem, I'm now scared. I think I will just tweak the GS a bit to get some more low-end grunt out of it.

_____________________________

06 GranSport (FD ECM, DBW, springs, filter, ProSpeed pipes)
14/2/2008 15:19:30  

Posts: 93
Since: 6/2/2008
Region: Cambridge
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Malcolm H

quote:

ORIGINAL: wicked1

Hi all, two points of interest in this thread. One the original thrust washers cannot move - One half has a locating tab and as such cannot move.

Secondly, the 4200 engine is a maserati engine and Not a ferrari engine - The engine was designed by Maserati and built but ferrari took it and adapted it for their own benefit.


Hmmmm,

First welcome to the forum.

But sorry can't agree with your interesting opinion.....don't think anyone specifically said the original washer can turn...just the replacement can't?

However, the 4200 was designed with Maserati under Ferrari ownership and the engine is a redevelopment of the Ferrari 90Deg V8 360 3568cc that has a bore & stroke of 85 x 79 and red lined at 8500 compared to the 4200's 92 x 80. Apart from the likelyhood for Ferrari to put it's reputation on the line manufacturing external designs for other marques, the same engine is used in the F430 with the bore & stroke altered and remapped to give 483bhp 343nm and a red line at 8500 instead of the 390bhp 333nm and redline at 7600. It may have been "co-designed" / modified for the "baby" / "entry level" Ferrari as it was seen at the time(next model up was £110K, £40K dearer at the time) but it is very definately a Ferrari item the point being to reduce development costs. Also the transaxle F1 box is of course Ferrari from a 360 which is why the the critiscm its get is so risible!


Malcolm
You may be right, but I'd have thought wicked1's take on the development of the 4200 was more believable, bearing in mind who he is and where he works. 

 
14/2/2008 19:18:48  

Posts: 775
Since: 19/8/2007
Status: online
Guys and in reverse order

The 4200 is actually a Ferrari design developed by Ferrari but effectively paid for by Maserati. Put slightly differently, Ferrari used Maserati (or rather their money) to develop the 4200 and once done adapted the design for their 430. Remember, this was at a time when Grandparents Fiat, were considering floating Ferrari on the Stock Exchange (possibly NYSE) and wanted their balance sheet as healthy as possible. The idea was then for Maserati to do for Alfa, what Ferrari had done for Maserati although little seems to have happened of late.

A quick word on endfloat and commiserations to those that have suffered this problem particularly since Maserati increased their prices for new cranks 3 or 4 fold:

Wicked is correct in that the thrust bearing cannot rotate with the crank as the lower half of each pair have tabs specifically to prevent this. However, when endfloat exceeds its tolerance of 0.006" to 0.008", the wear, therefore endfloat, can accelerate rapidly. An extreme case can result in so much wear that the endfloat can exceed the thickness of the remaining thrust bearing allowing the tab to pop out of its retaining slot and the bearing rotates with the crank chewing everything up in its path. By this time of course you would have little or no oil pressure and the engine would sound like a coffee grinder. Or is Conaero saying that top halves WITHOUT a tab have been wrongly fitted to the bottom??? Time for some photos of the old thrust bearings Conaero - All 4 please.

Why does a thrust bearing wear? Firstly, it is about the circumferance of an orange and is a steel backed, plain white metal bearing about 4mm thick. The steel side butts against the cylinder block sitting snugly in a machined recess and the white metal side (the bearing side) butts up against a flange on the crankshaft separated only by oil. It will therefore be seen that it is very similar in construction to a main or crankpin (big-end) bearing shell but oriented to control lateral movement. White metal is a very soft alloy - a bit like lead solder, containing a vey high proportion of tin, some antimony and perhaps even some lead. It is soft for a reason - Once "run-in" it will take on a perfect surface exactly matching the crank flange which is micro honed by the way. It does not need to be highly resistant to wear on its own - It does need to provide and contain a vital oil barrier. 

The oil is fed at full pressure from the main gallery passing through 2 channels about 6mm or 7mm wide cast into the white metal face to allow oil to get between the white metal face and the crank flange. Correctly designed, bearings like this can take a huge amount of load (thrust) as long as there is an oil barrier between crank flange and the white metal face at all times. As long as the there is white metal on the bearing, the crank cannot wear beyond being polished - The bearing is soft, the crank is very hard so the bearing gradually wears. Once the white metal is worn away you are down to the steel backing, have very little oil pressure at this bearing thus loosing most of your oil barrier and steel to steel contact knackers the crank - Exactly the same as running an engine with knackered main or big ends bearings will quickly destroy the crank journals.

Perhaps I have led a sheltered life but I am astonished that a phosphor bronze has been used as a replacement thrust bearing. If there is damage to the block, can it not be repaired with plasma deposition and line boring? Expensive but not prohibitive and certainly less than a new block that you otherwise need. If there is damage to the crank, regretably you need a new crank. If both are intact, you could try oversize thrust bearings.

Perhaps now you can see why oil quality is so important.

hope this helps

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15/2/2008 3:47:38  

Posts: 1677
Since: 22/12/2006
Region: Chichester, West Sussex
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Hi Wicked1 (Matthew) good to see you one the site.

I would just like to extent my thanks once again to you Wicked1 for all your help, anyone else got any problems, get in touch with this guy, he knows his stuff.

And thanks Nigelo, thats a lot of information.



As you can see (and please remember I have never worked on these engines) that the upper shim (item 3) does not have the lug on it, and the lower (item 2) does. Indeed, if the wear exceeds the thickness of the thrust washer, it could possibly spin round, I am only sharing what I have been able to dig up.

As far as I can make out, I have had my crank re shelled only with origional size shells, plus the offending crank end has been re mill and this Phosperous Bronze thurs washer pinned in place. What are the properties of PB over OEM thrust washers>

I know that the front of the crank has had OEM thrust washers fitted, so it must surely be down to the pull action of the clutch and or poor oil.

Great discussion guys, keep it up.



< Message edited by conaero -- 15/2/2008 3:48:56 >
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