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GHIBLI PERFORMANCE

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23/12/2009 11:06:07  
 

Posts: 81
Since: 20/9/2009
Status: online 		what do people think of upgrading the performance on the 2.8 maserati ghibli. just curious as to what people think the best way to go is here, i have a full de cat ss exhaust system, next up im either looking at new turbos or doing some head work, any thoughts or opinions. what turbos should i be looking at, dont really want to go for the 3200gt turbos, i dont want to lose too much driveability and i want the focus on acceleration more than top speed, i want to get her off the line quicker and have it on boost as soon as possible, i prefer acceleration over top end
23/12/2009 11:49:19  

Posts: 36
Since: 24/5/2007
Status: offline 		i think with the 2.8 liter engine the 3200 GT turbos would work ok! the roller bearing offsets the lag in spooling up so you don't notice that much difference.

easiest way to upgrade is to increase boost a couple of tenths and have an engine remap. i'd recommend changing out the boost solenoid and maybe fitting a seperate boost controller if you don't want to upgrade the ECU. with a better boost controller and faster solenoid you can get to the desired boost quicker giving you improved mid range torque.

don't think you can differentiate accelleration and top end speed since you're not going to change the gearing so either way you're after more power... but what i think you're saying is that you would rather increase torque at the expense of power? in this case... with a boost controller you could look at overboosting in the mid range and trimming it back at higher rpm... wouldn't recommend doing that on 1st (and 2nd) gear though.
23/12/2009 19:39:53  

Posts: 1112
Since: 11/5/2005
Region: Thames Valley
Status: offline 		I agree with Jonny.
I think the 3200 turbos would work well on the 2.8 - certainly better than the 2.0 as a result of the increased displacement. But can you live live with the cost?! They are not cheap and there are two of them!!
A boost increase and a remap is the way to go. But who will do it? I've not found anyone that wants to remap these old ecu's nowadays - you could get a chip off the shelf, there are a few places that sell them. But how do you know what the map is like?
Aftermarket ECU? - Costly and difficult.
I have it on good authority that you can set the timing on the 2.8 to the same settings as the cup, which will improve performance. Something else to note is that the chains stretch a little over time and that replacing at the right point will bring a bit of performance back.
The breathing could be improved too I think. The standard airboxes are quite restrictive and the only air they get is any that manages to get round the front headlamps. The airflow to the intercoolers could be improved. We intend to play with the airflow to the intercoolers and front brakes (upgrading to 4200 items) next year and this should be aided by removing the fog lights.

Jonny, what would you replace the boost solenoid with and why?

Granca, you could look at changing the diff - depending on what Ghibli you there are different diff options. I have a spreadsheet with all the diff options on it. If I remember correctly the diff from the automatic gives the shortest gearing and this is basically the same ratio as fitted to the Ghibli Open Cup Evo race cars.

_____________________________

Rich
Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG Estate
BMW 335d MSport Touring
Maserati Ghibli "Taylor/Hawksworth Trofeo edition"
23/12/2009 21:33:46  
 

Posts: 214
Since: 22/3/2007
Status: offline 		i had also given thought to the rear diff, i think the open cups used 3.9:1, whereas the road cups had 3.4:1. Sombody at work did mention  that it would make 1st gear over with very quickly, to  the point of it not being much use.

I am currently building a garage but once completed i will look into the rear diff, top speed is irrelevant but a bit more acceleration wouldn't go a miss. We could show those 32/42/gs boys a thing or two !!!

Del
23/12/2009 22:15:59  

Posts: 1112
Since: 11/5/2005
Region: Thames Valley
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: del mar

We could show those 32/42/gs boys a thing or two !!!

Del


We already do! Ok then our Ghibli is missing a bit of the interior but still, they have modern technology on there side, we only have an auto gearbox so we need to level the playing field somewhat. So far we have only used the Maserati parts bin for our modifications. We are able to hold our own with 3200/4200 at trackdays no problem.

Anyway in regards diffs, if you have a GT with the ZF diff you have three options: 3.25, 3.91, 3.45
If you have an ABS or before I think you have two options: 3.77, 3.31
To give an idea as to how this would make a difference.....
A 3.45 diff ghibli with a 6 speed and shifting at 6500rpm would achieve these speeds:
33, 53, 82, 110, 139, 164
A 3.91 diff ghibli with a 6 speed and shifting at 6500rpm would achieve these speeds:
29, 46, 72, 97, 123, 145

Anyone needs more, I have most of the data for the 5 and 6 speed boxes and the different diff options and part numbers.

_____________________________

Rich
Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG Estate
BMW 335d MSport Touring
Maserati Ghibli "Taylor/Hawksworth Trofeo edition"
24/12/2009 0:10:38  
 

Posts: 81
Since: 20/9/2009
Status: online 		i have a 5 speed box with a 3.31 diff in it. i have considered the 3200 gt turbos but i would still be spending about 1500 pounds on second hand turbos, just curioius as to other options, i also know where i can get a 3200 gt engine complete at a good price but by the time i purchase it, have it put into my ghibli etc would i not be better off spending the 4-5 thousand pounds on modifiying my engine to get better performance out of the 2.8, unfortunatley, there are not many of these cars in Australia and even less people that have tried to modify them so its good to see a group of people who share my opinon of the ghibli
24/12/2009 12:34:58  

Posts: 1112
Since: 11/5/2005
Region: Thames Valley
Status: offline 		ModenaTec perform tuning for the Ghibli.
If you swap the diff to the 3.77 that would make a reasonable difference - but I don't have the stats to hand.

_____________________________

Rich
Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG Estate
BMW 335d MSport Touring
Maserati Ghibli "Taylor/Hawksworth Trofeo edition"
24/12/2009 13:35:55  
 

Posts: 81
Since: 20/9/2009
Status: online 		more loooking to increase enginne performance rather than utilise the existing power inn a different manner. has anyone upraded the turbos on these cars but no gone for the 3200 turbos. has anone had head work done or put a set of cams in one, what different methods have people gone tryinng to get more power of there cars and what have they found to be a good modificationn as apposed to a waste of money
26/12/2009 20:57:15  
 

Posts: 214
Since: 22/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chad5k1


quote:

ORIGINAL: del mar

We could show those 32/42/gs boys a thing or two !!!

Del


We already do! Ok then our Ghibli is missing a bit of the interior but still, they have modern technology on there side, we only have an auto gearbox so we need to level the playing field somewhat. So far we have only used the Maserati parts bin for our modifications. We are able to hold our own with 3200/4200 at trackdays no problem.

Anyway in regards diffs, if you have a GT with the ZF diff you have three options: 3.25, 3.91, 3.45
If you have an ABS or before I think you have two options: 3.77, 3.31
To give an idea as to how this would make a difference.....
A 3.45 diff ghibli with a 6 speed and shifting at 6500rpm would achieve these speeds:
33, 53, 82, 110, 139, 164
A 3.91 diff ghibli with a 6 speed and shifting at 6500rpm would achieve these speeds:
29, 46, 72, 97, 123, 145

Anyone needs more, I have most of the data for the 5 and 6 speed boxes and the different diff options and part numbers.


Rich,

Would it be right that although the gears are "shorter" would the 3.91 reach the stated speeds much quicker ??

Del
27/12/2009 12:58:05  

Posts: 36
Since: 24/5/2007
Status: offline 		the standard boost control on the ECU is not really optimised... the solenoid opens up quite early and the type used is on a slow frequency cycle and doesn't react quick enough to optimise the boost curve, so it has to be set up a bit conservative. also, an add on boost controller lets you play with the boost a bit... the standard map on the ECU can extrapolate a bit so as long as you monitor your exhaust you can squeeze a bit more boost before the mixture starts to lean out too much.

for example... my wastegates don't even open until the car hits around 1.1 bar and i've had this set higher pretty comfortably. i think the original setup has the opening much earlier with a more linear response. even with 1.2 bar set and boost pressure set to 1.3 bar i can set up the controller so that there's no overboosting.

regarding porting, jarle over on the biturbo zentrum forum had his heads done by some pro in scandinavia... made such a difference that his car could no longer idle, so on the larger displacement engines i think this is a good way to go for more torque. for power, you need to get the engine revving faster, boosting higher and cooling better.
28/12/2009 10:12:16  
 

Posts: 156
Since: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		Jonny your own site seems to be quiet these days. I thought you maythave sold the car and moved on.
28/12/2009 10:51:06  

Posts: 36
Since: 24/5/2007
Status: offline 		hi there

indeed, not been any activity on my blog or on the car since i moved to syria mid 2008. i still have the car parked up in the netherlands though, so longer term will continue where i left off if/when i return to the netherlands.

first on the list will be to change out the ECU and install static ignition.

regards...
31/12/2009 21:55:11  

Posts: 1112
Since: 11/5/2005
Region: Thames Valley
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: del mar

Rich,

Would it be right that although the gears are "shorter" would the 3.91 reach the stated speeds much quicker ??

Del


Well it is more complex than, that relating to where the engine produces it's power and torque. However in the case of the cup it will clearly be faster to those speeds with the shorter ratios as peek power is produced very high in the rev range. In addition the race cars used the shorter ratios as it is better suited to track work and is faster to accelerate at the sacrifice of top speed.

_____________________________

Rich
Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG Estate
BMW 335d MSport Touring
Maserati Ghibli "Taylor/Hawksworth Trofeo edition"
31/12/2009 22:07:14  

Posts: 1112
Since: 11/5/2005
Region: Thames Valley
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonnycorcutt

the standard boost control on the ECU is not really optimised... the solenoid opens up quite early and the type used is on a slow frequency cycle and doesn't react quick enough to optimise the boost curve, so it has to be set up a bit conservative. also, an add on boost controller lets you play with the boost a bit... the standard map on the ECU can extrapolate a bit so as long as you monitor your exhaust you can squeeze a bit more boost before the mixture starts to lean out too much.


Yes Jonny, adding a boost controller is on the list of things to do. It's just that the turbosmart jobbie is really quite expensive. First off need to get the car on the rollers to see what power it is producing at present. This has been further complicated by it being an auto, so we have just about managed to disable the kick down but still will not get true figures, just a rough guide due to the torque convertor - I think!
then I'm sure I remember reading on your blog about removing the restrictor on the standard boost solenoid - is that right? - so may try that and take a look at the effect.

I'd like to get some power figures before we start messing with the airflow to the filters, intercoolers and brakes etc.

_____________________________

Rich
Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG Estate
BMW 335d MSport Touring
Maserati Ghibli "Taylor/Hawksworth Trofeo edition"
3/1/2010 6:22:49  
 

Posts: 81
Since: 20/9/2009
Status: online 		what power figures have people acheived with there ghibli's
3/1/2010 6:55:39  

Posts: 36
Since: 24/5/2007
Status: offline 		yes, there's a small restrictor in one of the control lines of the brown solenoid. removing it gave about a 0.1 bar increase in boost on my car.

regarding power output, i've had a dyno run of just over 330 hp on my car (the chart is on my blog), but the car is currently only giving about stock power of 305 hp i think because the timing is off. it should be at around 360 hp with the mods that i've made so i'm hoping that once the timing is sorted then this is where it will be.

once i'm back in NL and get the timing sorted i'll take the car back to the dyno... but that won't be for another couple of years i'm afraid!

ultimately, i'm aiming for around 400 hp, but that will require static ignition and a change of ECU. i'm going to upgrade the intercoolers (i have a cunning plan but requires cutting some slots in the sub structure... a la V8 QP IV) also to increase the frontal area a bit.
3/1/2010 8:11:44  

Posts: 1112
Since: 11/5/2005
Region: Thames Valley
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonnycorcutt

yes, there's a small restrictor in one of the control lines of the brown solenoid. removing it gave about a 0.1 bar increase in boost on my car.

ultimately, i'm aiming for around 400 hp, but that will require static ignition and a change of ECU. i'm going to upgrade the intercoolers (i have a cunning plan but requires cutting some slots in the sub structure... a la V8 QP IV) also to increase the frontal area a bit.


how is the restrictor removed? Did you have to drill it out?

I'm not sure bigger intercoolers are required really Jonny. I don't know of them them being swapped out on any Ghibli - e.g. Tuned cup racers, modenatec etc. Also removing the fogs and some ducting to the intercoolers behind the fogs will hugely increase the airflow to the standard items.

_____________________________

Rich
Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG Estate
BMW 335d MSport Touring
Maserati Ghibli "Taylor/Hawksworth Trofeo edition"
3/1/2010 11:00:48  

Posts: 36
Since: 24/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chad5k1

how is the restrictor removed? Did you have to drill it out?

I'm not sure bigger intercoolers are required really Jonny. I don't know of them them being swapped out on any Ghibli - e.g. Tuned cup racers, modenatec etc. Also removing the fogs and some ducting to the intercoolers behind the fogs will hugely increase the airflow to the standard items.


the insert is pulled out... some pliers should do the trick.

bigger intercoolers will be required if you want to increase the boost significantly... but for boost up to 1.3 bar i'd agree that this isn't required. modenatec DO change out the intercoolers... they install 3200 GT intercoolers which are bigger and thicker.

the ghibli cup has lots of extra venting like you mention, but i want to keep the driving lights. modena redo all the venting to the intercoolers to take some air from the radiator flow in. you can see pics of it all on enrico's site.
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