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MaseratiForumMaserati CarsA6G-Merak, BiTurbo era, Ghibli, QP IV Ghibli fuel filter/tank/rail fun!

Ghibli fuel filter/tank/rail fun!

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3/3/2011 7:19:15  

Posts: 228
Since: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		Thought I'd have a look last night at the possibility of definitively investigating the Cinquecento fuel filter folklore that surrounds the immersed Ghibli fuel filters...

I stripped back the carpeting to reveal the tank and can see what needs to be done. The access hatch in the top left (as seen from the boot) of the fuel tank is too far recessed under the parcelshelf to remove and gain access to the internal filter, so the tank will have to move forwards. Before the two mounting straps can be removed, I will have to disconnect the inlet pipe from the fuel filler cap and the send & return rubber link pipes from the underside of the tank to the fuel lines. The send & return lines from the tank poke through a hole in the floor of the boot and appear underneath the floorpan above the drivers side driveshaft.

And that, is where I started to think; How can I avoid starting the engine again after this without having air in the fuel lines...?
 
I have come to the conclusion that the best thing to do, would be to do the job and then after reconnecting all the hosing; run the fuel pump from the battery directly without starting the car and let all the vapours and air-pockets circulate around the lines and fuel rail and back into the tank and let the vapour recovery system do it's work and that will even it all out.

This may or may not involve the assistance of the fuel rail bleed nipple...

Does anybody have an opinion on this/know better than this armchair-mechanic's-opinion...?

Was going to contact the main-dealers for a quote on the hosing for the rubber link pipes- although the parts book shows a much longer set of link pipes... 

JimP













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8/3/2011 22:27:40  
 

Posts: 214
Since: 22/3/2007
Status: offline 		Have you finished this yet ????

Do you really need to undo the send/return pipes can you not just rotate the tank backwards to allow access to the access panel ? You will need to remove the filler connector, and that should be enough ?

I need to remove the fuel tank on my bike to change the air filter, when i reconnect it i just keep pressing the starter until it fires into life. You can hear it working away until eventually it fires
Air in the system is surely just the same as when you run out of fuel, it just won't start the fuel pump will whirr away and the engine will turn over until fuel reaches the engine and it eventually fires. I believe running out fuel in a diesel is a problem but not petrol, I have ran out several times in modernish cars without a problem. The technology in these cars must be 15 years old now surely they aren't that complex.

If your car is a mile from your house do it and if it won't start ring the AA !!!

I am into heavy breathing this week !!

Del
9/3/2011 13:24:56  

Posts: 228
Since: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		yeah- you're right actually-

I just last night opened the QP 4 (V6 2.0/2.8) engine manual and there's a five page "spread" (which I've had for years but never really paid much attention to) on how to change the filter in the tank. the tank needs to be rolled forward to make the top accessible and the send and return pipes exit the bottom rear so it won't move until they are undone (I don't think anyway- unless there's a flexible link to them behind the tank? I took it that the pipes visible poking through the foam underneath the car were fxed to the tank- and there's not much play on those!!)

It does mention however, removing the bleed nipple on the fuel rail at the inlet manifold first and pressing in the "sphere" to relieve some fuel pressure before starting which is kind of what I was wondering about...
9/3/2011 19:00:56  
 

Posts: 139
Since: 15/2/2009
Status: offline 		JimP,

I removed the tank on my QPIV to clean it out and I had no problems with air at all.

In fact, I replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter, fabricating what I needed from parts from a Ford Explorer. It's a lot easier if you just cut the rubber fuel pipes when removing the tank and replace them with new ones when you refit it. It's a standard 8mm hose, so is easily obtainable. Removing the RH rear wheel makes the job a lot easier.

You can undo the fuel bleed once the job is finished, and the air will escape. But, there's really no need, because the fuel pump is totally immersed in petrol, so will self-prime and any air will be returned to the tank along the fuel return line. (Make sure that you mark the hoses under the tank so as not to cross the pipes)

You can attach a fuel pressure gauge at the bleed point. Look for 35-45 psi.

Duncan
10/3/2011 7:44:05  

Posts: 228
Since: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		Hey Duncan- thanks for that!

That's quite reassuring...

So are the pipes that appear under the car (through the foam) fixed solid to the bottom of the tank? Theres no intermediary hosing in the boot is there?

What filter did you use...?

JimP
10/3/2011 18:28:06  
 

Posts: 139
Since: 15/2/2009
Status: offline 		JimP

The pipes are attached to the tank directly. Cut them close to the tank, at different angles so that you know which one was which. I used a Fram G3850 fuel filter.

Duncan
 
11/3/2011 10:19:48  

Posts: 228
Since: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks for that, Duncan...

what engine have you got in the QP IV?

Why did you replace the pump- had it already failed...?

< Message edited by ZAM400209 -- 11/3/2011 10:50:07 >
11/3/2011 19:31:29  
 

Posts: 139
Since: 15/2/2009
Status: offline 		JimP

The QPIV had the 4v engine in it. The car wouldn't run when I bought it - and it turned out that the fuel in the tank had been contaminated with, probably, detergent, which had gummed up everything inside the tank, reducing the contents of the swirl pool to jelly and clogging the pump and filter.

I deal in Ford Explorers, which have a similar fuel pump set up and similar power output, so I bodged the fuel pump assembly into the QPIV tank, after thoroughly cleaning it with petrol, detergent and degreaser. I fitted a new Ford Explorer fuel filter in the tank, along with all new fuel pipes.

The result was that the petrol flowed to the injector rails as Maserati intended.

I no longer have that QPIV, because I broke it for parts. I do, however, have a 1995 Ghibli with the same engine.

Duncan

Duncan
14/3/2011 14:00:20  

Posts: 228
Since: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		Hmm, well a cursory attempt at fuel hosing, from the B&Q of the automotive world- Halfords, revealed 6mm as a stock version.

It's definitely 8mm for this, is it Duncan? The measurements kind of back it up as the 6mm that they had was about 12mm in diametre and the car has something nearer 15 diametre fitted...

I asked Wurth in the UK if they could quote me a type for the Open Cup race car fuel filtering pipework seen in this shot...

JimP













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14/3/2011 16:14:32  
 

Posts: 139
Since: 15/2/2009
Status: offline 		Jim,

I think that I'm right, but the only certain way would be for you to measure the outlet and inlet pipes from the tank.

The Wurth setup looks all a bit unnecessary for a road car. Presumably the external pump and filters are fitted to facilitate quick change in the event of contamination and the feeder tank to reduce the possibilty of fuel starvation or surge.

Duncan
15/3/2011 10:21:16  

Posts: 228
Since: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		Yes- it's not a road car thing, but a supplement to the standard setup for the race car version.

I'm only showing it as it shows the type of hosing used on what I can only assume is an identical secondary pump and filters...
27/4/2011 12:46:15  

Posts: 52
Since: 22/3/2008
Region: NYC area USA
Status: offline 		Hi JIM, I haven't been on here for a while. I have a GOC which has this setup and I had to recondition it a couple of years ago. What is it you want to know? Basically it uses the existing internal pump to keep the fuel pot (tank) filled with fuel. I didn't open my tank up but I believe the internal filter has been removed. One of those filters (middle) shown is from straining the fuel from the tank going into the top of the pot. The other filter strains the fuel drawn by the external pump from the bottom of the tank that is then sent to the FI rail. The return from the FI rail comes back to this pot and feeds into the top. The other line at the top is a return to the gas tank. The pumps run until there's adequate pressure in the FI rail and then everything turns off just like the stock in-tank system. I should think that you could get a race shop to help you make up something similar to this. If you use the car on the road then I expect you could locate this a bit better and safer. After ten years with just a little track use the hoses connecting at the bottom of the tank began to leak a bit and unknown by me at that time I had a puddle of gas in the trunk. It exploded when I started the car but thankfully it just made a pop noise from the fumes, popped the trunk lid up and no huge fire. I could find no fault with the tank or the hoses per say so I just replace them all and it was fixed. Something to consider ... The hose is all 8mm ID or 5/16" works too. Bob
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZAM400209 Hmm, well a cursory attempt at fuel hosing, from the B&Q of the automotive world- Halfords, revealed 6mm as a stock version. It's definitely 8mm for this, is it Duncan? The measurements kind of back it up as the 6mm that they had was about 12mm in diametre and the car has something nearer 15 diametre fitted... I asked Wurth in the UK if they could quote me a type for the Open Cup race car fuel filtering pipework seen in this shot... JimP



27/4/2011 13:33:56  

Posts: 228
Since: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		thanks for that Bob-

we discussed this a while ago through PM didn't we?

I was just trying to establish what hosing I would need and whether there would be a special start-up procedure to starting the engine again after the fuel lines had drained...

But I've got all that info now- next thing would be to buy one of the fabled Fiat Cinquecento fuel filters and  visually compare it to the one immersed in the tank...

JimP
27/4/2011 15:12:32  

Posts: 52
Since: 22/3/2008
Region: NYC area USA
Status: offline 		I substituted some locally obtained US made filters for the ones shown in that picture for obvious reasons.
28/4/2011 10:27:11  

Posts: 228
Since: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		Bob,

is there a spec for fuel filters? Like a flow rate capacity?

Duncan used Ford Explorer parts; Did you try to get a certain type?
28/4/2011 12:49:19  

Posts: 52
Since: 22/3/2008
Region: NYC area USA
Status: offline 		I think you worry too much. I wanted a filter that would: A. fit the spot B. have the same size& type connections. Not so easy over here. C. looked similar enough. They worked just fine. I wouldn't go and put some tiny cheap filter on there but anything that satisfies A., B., C. and is suitable for FI should work just fine. You could do a calculation for fuel flow requirements for a 350HP engine if you wanted I suppose. The filters I chose were $12-15 each over here. I couldn't begin to get the "originals" here for that price. Very hard to find too. It may be different where you are. I don't quite know why they have two filters?
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