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MaseratiForumSiteInformation Guidelines Regarding Naming and Shaming

Guidelines Regarding Naming and Shaming

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14/9/2009 21:33:58  

Posts: 397
Since: 16/10/2008
Region: UAE/MiddleEast
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Guidelines Regarding 'Naming And Shaming'

Please allow me to elaborate on the legal implications for us all, when 'naming and shaming', as relayed to me by our legal counsel: -

Firstly it's simply a matter of fairness. All too often one hears a 'horror' story about a dealer only to later talk to the dealer involved and find that there are considerably different views on what actually took place.

As with all things, there are dealers out there as well as customers with unreasonable expectations in certain instances - either party may expect too much, distort the facts in their favour, etc. etc. And as always seems to be the case, there is little independently recorded third party evidence, to substantiate either side’s claims – which is what the law ideally requires in case of a legal dispute. So, in the case of ‘he said, she said’ arguments, which they almost always seem to be, how can we act as judge and jury when someone posts something bad about a business, when we can't always verify the 'facts' as presented? If the dealer doesn't even know that the message has been posted then it's somewhat unfair on their business to be slated in public with no opportunity to respond. And even if the dealer or company does frequent this site, is it right that a dispute should be argued out in public? That's no way to resolve matters sensibly.

MaseratiForum.co.uk then becomes involved as a 'publisher' of what may be libellous, making matters even more complex. If we're asked to remove comments by a company and we consider them potentially libellous then we will have to take them off the site. That then leaves the posters open to litigation, and we do not want to see that happen.

Disputes are best dealt with in the real world through normal channels. Doing it online merely opens a can of worms for the person naming the dealer, for MaseratiForum.co.uk and for the business being discussed.

We've no desire to become embroiled in legal disputes and start providing transcripts of threads to solicitors (yes, it has happened).

Many people do not realise that they are opening themselves up to accusations of libel too. "But what I posted was true" is a frequent retort. That's as may be, but all too often emotions creeps into messages and people end up stepping over the line, putting themselves in a position where they could invite a whole heap of trouble.

Naturally, members wish to air their ill-feeling, and we 100% understand that, but within legal parameters please. So, the answer is that we kindly request people not to indulge in excessively one-sided 'name and shame' discussions. It's the simplest solution found.

Rest assured though, these guidlines are preceded by a 'common sense' rule hence many threads are live that namecheck third parties in a negative light. We only step in when the threat of legal action is looming large.

< Message edited by Birdcage -- 20/3/2010 20:06:38 >
14/9/2009 22:09:02  

Posts: 4164
Since: 5/6/2007
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Just for arguments sake      from a numpties point of view     what happens when you get one particular dealer/sponsor/indie whatever that consistantly gets suspect reviews   seems  a rather thick blanket protection for them from a member/owner point of view thats where a points table would prevent anything libelous ever being said       

For a score to be added to the table   maybe a minimum 100 posts and or 3/6 months mimimum member

Seems a little one sided from an owner/member point of view    fully understand the forum /you need protection Birdcage  thats where the points system  fills the gap

Jmho

regards  loz 

_____________________________

Old pompous spods current stable
52 plate 4200 cc Lowered Tubi's and full GS body kit,steering wheel and rack
55 plate 4200 cc Gransport Full Larini system,AP Racing big brake upgrade ,more stuff pending

14/9/2009 22:12:23  

Posts: 527
Since: 15/5/2009
Status: offline
Hence....sticking purely to a list of recommendations.....you are only on it  by repeated good experiences reported by our more seasoned posters...200 plus posters being a reasonable lower limit!

Roll on the "Magnificent Maserati" providers list.


14/9/2009 22:27:49  

Posts: 230
Since: 11/8/2008
Region: Goffs Oak
Status: offline
Birdcage,

Having to deal with legal nonsense on a regular basis, I fully sympathise with the forums position, as frustrating as that may be as a consumer...

I presume then, if i were to post a "horror story" about a dealer / supplier etc but explicitly stated I did not wish to reveal their name publicly, and that I fully excepted my views were subjectively my own, i could invite those who wanted more details to PM me, on the basis none of my private correspondence was made public? 

sincerely, S

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14/9/2009 22:27:55  

Posts: 397
Since: 16/10/2008
Region: UAE/MiddleEast
Status: offline
Hi Loz,

Please bear in mind that in the real world there is little more than word of mouth, and personal/gut feeling towards a Service Provider, to go on before using them. However, with our Forum, a basic search will provide feedback to which UK based providers are rated by Forum members. This is a great thing, and thank you to all the members who regularly record their feedback. That data is their for all to see, you just have to do a basic search. If that is not 'numptie' proof, as you put it, nothing will be.

As regards 'thick blanket protection' for Indys we aren't really offering that - there is nothing to stop a member saying, "used Dealer so & so, and didn't like their attitude". Or even, "used Dealer such & such, their work was shoddy in my opinion, but also verifried by a seperate dealer: pm me for the pictures". 

On the odd occasion, customer/service provider issues can sometimes come down to personalities and sometimes they clash. If you search this Forum, for every guy that says a particular dealer is a baddie, there are a lot of posts from others saying the dealer is great.

"We want a points table" a couple of you have said. I shall be responding to the 'league/points table' issue on the original query thread.

Cheers,

BT

< Message edited by Birdcage -- 27/2/2010 14:24:56 >
14/9/2009 22:39:46  

Posts: 397
Since: 16/10/2008
Region: UAE/MiddleEast
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimonM

Birdcage,

Having to deal with legal nonsense on a regular basis, I fully sympathise with the forums position, as frustrating as that may be as a consumer...

I presume then, if i were to post a "horror story" about a dealer / supplier etc but explicitly stated I did not wish to reveal their name publicly, and that I fully excepted my views were subjectively my own, i could invite those who wanted more details to PM me, on the basis none of my private correspondence was made public? 

sincerely, S


Simon - that should see us all safe. IF, for arguments sake, that dealer complained stating that what you were doing was in their views libellous, we would submit the thread to out legal team, and go from there. No legal issue, no problem, thread stays up. If we remove it upon legal advice, it is because we are trying to protect you and ourelves from legal re-course. "Well, what about the newbies?" some may say. If the dealer really is that bad, he would not doubt have been mentioned here before, in some capacity, which a basic "Search" of the Forum will show.

As the Administrator of this Forum, I have to be fair and impartial to all parties in the Maserati community, consumer and business alike, unless there is a clear case of misconduct.

< Message edited by Birdcage -- 27/2/2010 14:05:29 >
14/9/2009 23:41:06  
 

Posts: 366
Since: 3/7/2009
Status: offline
Birdcage I understand where you are coming from but at the end of the day a simple points system for various catagories is surely not over stepping the mark and in particular if no reason is given on the message board why the chosen amount of points was awarded.

This is not naming and shaming but merely giving a number of points to a dealer according to personal experience. Some may vote low and some may vote high. If for arguements sake one individulal votes 10 out of 10 and the next guy votes 2 out of 10 then that dealer has earned 12 points. It could perhaps be done in such a way that whatever we vote just gets added to the overall score. That way no individual person can shame a dealer. If the dealer gets shamed it is only because he has been voted low by a majority. If one or two vote low this will have little bearing on the overall result. I am not a computer buff but as added protection each member could be restricted to voting once per catagory per dealer.

There are many webistes which invite reviews.

At the end of the day you have the responsibility of the welfare of the forum and I am sure we will all abide by whatever decision you reach.

As a closing point though the Maserati Ownership Experience is only as good as the guy looking after our pride and joy. Many come here completely baffled by who they should turn to. Yes we all know that Emblem is one of the good guys but if you live in Inverness thats of little help. I have been a member for a while now and am only just beginning to sort the Good from the Bad. This has been achieved more by trial and error. I just thought it would be a good idea if a system ( a legal system) could be devised to make that an easier task.

Just as a final final point I love the forum and it has almost become a daily ritual to come here.

< Message edited by UrbanMaser -- 14/9/2009 23:58:16 >


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Past Masters:- Alfa Romeo GT 3.2 V6, Alfa Romeo 156 2.5 V6, Alfa Romeo Montreal, Ferrari 308GT4, Mercedes 500SL, Mercedes 380SL, Mercedes 28SE Coupe, Mercedes 450SLC, Alfa Romeo Spider S2, MGC, Marcos 3 litre, Now driving 2007 Gransport LE
15/9/2009 0:24:19  

Posts: 397
Since: 16/10/2008
Region: UAE/MiddleEast
Status: offline
UrbanMaser - http://www.maseratiforum.co.uk/fb.asp?m=38143

< Message edited by Birdcage -- 15/9/2009 23:53:34 >
14/1/2010 8:46:49  
 

Posts: 33
Since: 1/12/2009
Region: South West
Status: offline
Dear me, I do seem to have walked into a minefield by posting what I thought was a helpful reply to Parisien's suggestions regarding some form of marking the quality of dealers and independents. My apologies, put it down to my novice status, both on this and all forums since this is the first I have become involved in.

I do understand our need to avoid legal "unpleasantness" but I am surprised that a forum, supported by both trade and owners that is devoted to improving the lot of the UKs Maserati community would not support some form of collective measure of supplier performance? This can be carefully moderated so that rogue results can be ignored. However perhaps this is not the British way, some of us do find it hard to admit that we could do things a little better so I guess we deserve our lot. Finally on this subject, and with all deference to "Birdcage" - who has I am sure a tough job, I did find the inference that some members of the forum that complain can be likened to "terrorists" somewhat over the top if not offensive.

On a more positive note, I have found the forum a mine of useful information and access to the wider Maserati community is most welcome in particular details of the events planned for the year is very useful and I look forward to meeting folks later in the year.

RJABmaser



14/1/2010 8:57:35  
nfm
 

Posts: 280
Since: 28/4/2009
Region: West of Scotland
Status: offline
Expedia have a very simple marks out of 5 approach across key disciplines that could easily be replicated....................?

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nfm


2005 Coupe GT, Nero Carbonio/Avorio

Previous Italians, Alfa 156 2.5, Ducati 900SS, Fiat Mirafiori Sport (3)
14/1/2010 9:23:58  
 

Posts: 575
Since: 29/1/2007
Status: offline
not wishing to add fuel to the fire, but Brian has made an executive decision on the direction that he wishes the forum to go and the behaviour that he expects, like any form of organisation, there are rules, regulations and guidelines.

we should respect his decision and move on, suggesting methods of doing it, or other people that do it, make no difference, as afterall, this is a free forum owned and maintained by Brian.

I'm now exepcting the backlash for this, but Brian, I support you!
22/3/2010 11:50:36  
 

Posts: 21
Since: 6/9/2009
Region: SE London
Status: offline
This is an interesting read for me. I have a tuning company (Prolex-UK) specialising in Lexus & Toyota tuning gear.

I used to be very active on the lexus owners forum but it all ended in tears when a customer complained about a turbo conversion on a thread and started a witchhunt from the keyboard warriors that frequent many forums.

I had no defence over the time it took to complete but he started to say the workmanship was poor car did not run right etc (lived in Norway so drove it home OK then started to complain..)

Back story was he bounced a balancing payment on me for £2.5k and was trying to shame me by the bad publicity into saying stop posting & i'll not chase you for the debt.

I could not  say that in my defense (that he owed me money) all I couild keep saying was bring it back and I'll put the problems right (and pay his travel costs) which he refused to do...

No moderation at all so all sorts of claims being made against me in the end I PM'd the site owner asking for it to be closed/edited to reflcet the truth ...he refused. Threaten legal action for libel etc.

His response was to ban me for causing trouble

bit of a bummer really but at least to topic was closed.................



_____________________________

2005 Lexus IS350 Compressor (only one outside of Japan) 370 bhp
2003 Toyota MR2 143 bhp
1992 Toyota Soarer 2.5 TT Track day toy 290 bhp & 1300kgs
22/3/2010 13:04:58  

Posts: 738
Since: 11/8/2008
Region: Shrewsbury, Shropshire
Status: offline
I'm sorry to hear that Dave. It shows how difficult it can be to balance these situations in an open forum.
I can only say that my dealings with you Dave through the MR2ROC has been first class and I hope it hasn't caused you any terminal problems.
Have you got yourself a Masser yet, tho??
-David-


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22/3/2010 13:20:53  
 

Posts: 21
Since: 6/9/2009
Region: SE London
Status: offline
Greetings !

Caused a few problems early on but now things are OK. Most stuff goes abroad though as the weak £ makes it attractive.

Still looking for my Maserati but must sell my Lexus IS350 first.

Keep getting offers but not what I think its worth & often sh***ty P/X's as part of the low offer.

I'll get there in the end though :-)

Still sell bits n bobs to the roadster club but thats also a bit slow

_____________________________

2005 Lexus IS350 Compressor (only one outside of Japan) 370 bhp
2003 Toyota MR2 143 bhp
1992 Toyota Soarer 2.5 TT Track day toy 290 bhp & 1300kgs
22/3/2010 16:21:48  

Posts: 4164
Since: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveEllen

Greetings !

Caused a few problems early on but now things are OK. Most stuff goes abroad though as the weak £ makes it attractive.

Still looking for my Maserati but must sell my Lexus IS350 first.

Keep getting offers but not what I think its worth & often sh***ty P/X's as part of the low offer.

I'll get there in the end though :-)

Still sell bits n bobs to the roadster club but thats also a bit slow





You have my sentiments Dave , you did the right thing and offered to put any work right and recompense any travelling expenses , all the more reason for a points system  rather than the opportunity to name and shame   which I don’t agree with 

But on the other hand  I know of a story   on  a VERY  well known forum that continued to accept revenue from advertisers of   known  dubious  ethics    ,  even tho  the owner administrator of that forum  had consulted  one  or more of the respected members whether to accept them as sponsors or not ,  for what ever reason he chose to ignore the advice ,  

Now!  just supposing ,  had they had   a points system  in place regarding advertisers on the site, then 3 new members might have been saved  joint losses in the region of £10,000 , and been saved the problems that they incurred by going and buying somewhere else , really ironic  that  a few months down the line they were removed as sponsors , 


You can lead a horse to water  but you cant make it drink



Regards loz   

< Message edited by lozcb -- 22/3/2010 16:24:34 >


_____________________________

Old pompous spods current stable
52 plate 4200 cc Lowered Tubi's and full GS body kit,steering wheel and rack
55 plate 4200 cc Gransport Full Larini system,AP Racing big brake upgrade ,more stuff pending

22/3/2010 16:34:30  

Posts: 617
Since: 7/3/2009
Region: Milan
Status: offline

A point system is good in practice but not a "end-it-all" solution. Point giving needs to be closely monitored to ensure a single member doesn't create multiple usernames to vote positively or negatively multiple times. Also, if someone has more than one experience with a dealer, the system should be flexible enough to allow you to edit your vote, but then again, all sorts of shenanigans can take place if votes can be edited.

All in all, any system would require a lot of time from the administrator and probably still come under major fire from people for not being good enough.

Tough one.


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22/3/2010 16:56:13  
 

Posts: 21
Since: 6/9/2009
Region: SE London
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lozcb

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveEllen

Greetings !

Caused a few problems early on but now things are OK. Most stuff goes abroad though as the weak £ makes it attractive.

Still looking for my Maserati but must sell my Lexus IS350 first.

Keep getting offers but not what I think its worth & often sh***ty P/X's as part of the low offer.

I'll get there in the end though :-)

Still sell bits n bobs to the roadster club but thats also a bit slow





You have my sentiments Dave , you did the right thing and offered to put any work right and recompense any travelling expenses , all the more reason for a points system  rather than the opportunity to name and shame   which I don’t agree with 

But on the other hand  I know of a story   on  a VERY  well known forum that continued to accept revenue from advertisers of   known  dubious  ethics    ,  even tho  the owner administrator of that forum  had consulted  one  or more of the respected members whether to accept them as sponsors or not ,  for what ever reason he chose to ignore the advice ,  

Now!  just supposing ,  had they had   a points system  in place regarding advertisers on the site, then 3 new members might have been saved  joint losses in the region of £10,000 , and been saved the problems that they incurred by going and buying somewhere else , really ironic  that  a few months down the line they were removed as sponsors , 


You can lead a horse to water  but you cant make it drink



Regards loz   


aye...one of the forum sponsors was also winding everyone up in my case but he'd done lots of gratis work for key people on the site so nothing was done.

Finally he was found out and removed after it was found his company's poor workmanship had caused 5 engine failures (he'd managed to keep disgruntled owners quiet & mods deleted contraversial posts ...hey ho

My own view is forums are a great place for traders in generating custom/group buys etc BUT one unhappy chappy can without good reason destroy years of work with either a series of sarcastic posts or plain false statements

_____________________________

2005 Lexus IS350 Compressor (only one outside of Japan) 370 bhp
2003 Toyota MR2 143 bhp
1992 Toyota Soarer 2.5 TT Track day toy 290 bhp & 1300kgs
22/3/2010 16:57:56  

Posts: 4164
Since: 5/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lozcb

Just for arguments sake      from a numpties point of view     what happens when you get one particular dealer/sponsor/indie whatever that consistantly gets suspect reviews   seems  a rather thick blanket protection for them from a member/owner point of view thats where a points table would prevent anything libelous ever being said       

For a score to be added to the table   maybe a minimum 100 posts and or 3/6 months minimum membership

Seems a little one sided from an owner/member point of view    fully understand the forum / needs protection   thats where the points system  fills the gap

Jmho

regards  loz 




Once the table is set up ,   and programmed     to only allow  the required  criteria to vote  its  virtually self monitoring  , just needs an occasional  eye from admin , its not rocket science   with todays ever expanding technology ,  many other  modern and leading sites   do it  now days,   without problems  it seems


regards loz


_____________________________

Old pompous spods current stable
52 plate 4200 cc Lowered Tubi's and full GS body kit,steering wheel and rack
55 plate 4200 cc Gransport Full Larini system,AP Racing big brake upgrade ,more stuff pending

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