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MaseratiForumMaserati Cars3200GT, 4200 Coupe/Spyder, GranSport Selenia vs Shell Helix oil for a 3200GT?

Selenia vs Shell Helix oil for a 3200GT?

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28/10/2010 20:52:08  
 

Posts: 4
Since: 24/6/2010
Region: Oxon
Status: offline
Hi all

Car is having a hard earned oil change and I've been told by Bob Houghton's that Maserati now recommends "Shell helix ultra fully synthetic 5W40" instead of Selenia 10W60.

I trust them however it does seem a significant change in grade! Anyone know why the change?

Cheers

Jamie
28/10/2010 22:24:44  

Posts: 49
Since: 26/8/2010
Region: Williamstown
Status: offline 		This business of using a SAE 60 oil has intrigued me ever since I bought my car. The recommendation just doesn't make sense,especially for cold starts.
In Australia we all use 10W-40 oil with no problems. An SAE 60 oil is virtually unknown here. Use of a synthetic oil is not justified as the Maser engine doesn't run hot. The ONLY reason a synthetic oil is used is to maintain an engine which runs very hot,like some of the Japanese engines which are overboosted and run too lean mixtures. Synthetic oil is no better than mineral as a lubricant. The determining factor in oil quality is the additive package and you & I can't evaluate that except by experience in using whatever oil we think is best. 

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I thought I saw my name on a loaf of bread this morning,however it just said "thick cut"
28/10/2010 23:15:35  

Posts: 775
Since: 19/8/2007
Status: offline 		Firstly Selenia Racing is not SAE60 (a straight grade) but rather 10W60 (a multigrade). Secondly, the "60" has nothing whatsoever to do with the cold start viscosity - It is the "10" that does and that remains good down to below minus 30 celsius. Thirdly, the Maser engine does in fact run hot, very hot, where the oil needs to do its job most - The turbos. Use of a mineral oil will break down or crack at the high T/c temps involved and that is why Maserati recommend the use of this grade - After all the engine was developed, tested and validated with this precise grade. Lastly, Selenia Racing 10W60 is reasonably readily available in Australia - from Alfa Dealers according to our other friends from the Antipodes.

In reponse to the original poster, Maserati have not produced a t/c engine since the 3200 and this is why they specify Shell Helix for all flavours of 4200, a completely different and normally aspirated engine 

3200s must always use 10w60 to Selenia Racing spec assuming you wish to avoid crank endfloat issues

hope this helps

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You can lead a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink
29/10/2010 6:57:28  

Posts: 49
Since: 26/8/2010
Region: Williamstown
Status: offline 		I'm not questioning the Winter Grade rating. SAE 60 is effectively twice the viscosity at 100C. as SAE 40 which amounts to a lot of power loss. Only conceivable use would be in racing where it may keep an engine together.
Lots of turbo's using mineral oil with no problems,for instance my Lotus M100
Elan which has just ticked over 100,000 km.
Are you saying that the "cushioning" effect of SAE 60 will save the crankshaft end spacers & preserve the end float ? Seems to me that some on this forum are getting end float problems whatever they're using for oil.
Anyway,thanks for the tip on availability at Alfa dealers,will check it out.


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I thought I saw my name on a loaf of bread this morning,however it just said "thick cut"
29/10/2010 14:42:44  

Posts: 542
Since: 22/7/2006
Status: offline 		Why even bother with the original specifications for the equipment you bought. There are much better modern options available from experts who have current knowledge*.






Unless the many hours (hundreds / thousands) testing the units in question really did invalidate the original specs.



* If the original equipment (oil) is similar price to modern equivalent, who would choose the "new stuff"?

< Message edited by rs48635 -- 29/10/2010 14:45:01 >

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rob
alfa 166 3.0V6 Gone
Alfa 166 3.0 V6 Sportomatic
911 3.2 cab
3200GT assetto corsa 40/75
"You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough." — Joe Louis.
29/10/2010 17:02:02  

Posts: 193
Since: 9/5/2008
Region: Dorchester
Status: offline 		Trust Nigelo - he clearly knows what he is talking about. As long as it's available - and it is - widely - use Selenia as specified in the 3200 manual.  Every one I consider credible in the 3200 business agrees and I have personal experience of equivelent lubricants that are designed to the same spec causing major issues.  If a Maserati specialist is telling you different, they are either not a specialist or are being lazy and I would walk away or provide my own oil. 

I'm not saying that alternatives won't give you years of carefree motoring, but they might not and there is no reason to take the risk and disregard the Manufacturer when there is plenty of evidence that Maserati are right.

Sorry - it annoys me when so called experts that we should be able to trust talk rubbish.
29/10/2010 22:22:38  

Posts: 775
Since: 19/8/2007
Status: offline 		For those interested in the crank endfloat issue that has affected some 3220s, you may like to review my article I posted a while back here

hope this helps

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You can lead a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink
30/10/2010 1:33:34  
 

Posts: 147
Since: 23/6/2009
Status: offline 		Hi Nigelo,

What do you think about Agip 10w60 racing (Eurospares is selling it) or the Shell Racing 10w60?
I personnaly use the Agip one.

Thanks in advance,

Bernard

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Bernard
Maserati 3200GT AC (Manual)
30/10/2010 3:23:04  

Posts: 259
Since: 23/4/2010
Region: Witney, Oxfordshire
Status: offline 		With all the previous posts, I would not decry the knowledge of Bob Houghton, who are very very experienced with the Ferrari and Maserati marques of not but the current models but previous, historic and racing preparation by themselves with all the results. I use them myself along with Lovetts of Swindon, and trust them implicitly. Have a talk to Russell, service manager to discuss your underlying feelings further.

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Stephen Bromley

05my 4200CC Grigio nuvolari/beige, Grigio mercuri wheels, Alluminio calipers and Nero Incrociata grille. Larini back boxes.
53 MG ZT 190+, 52 BMW 330ci Clubsport, 58 Smart 4-2 passion MHD

30/10/2010 10:43:03  
 

Posts: 713
Since: 12/3/2007
Region: Hampshire
Status: offline 		Some time ago 'Street Commodores' of Australia ran an oil performance comparison, based on something called a Falex test, which set out to benchmark 18 oils including Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 which didn't seem to perform too well. However, SC was then challenged over its results and published a later article which makes interesting reading insofar as it states that opinions on test conditions and parameters are divided even among the experts who know the subject. The first article was quite definitive about comparative oil performance whilst the second, although not a retraction as such, introduced doubts. You really need to read both articles to see what I mean, and I have pdf's of them if you email me.

Now I for one would not like to argue the toss with Bob Houghton as he's forgotten more about Ferrari and Maserati than most of us will ever know, and likewise there are folk on the various forums who know the oil subject better than I. From the lay perspective, however, life can become a little easier and I'm sure we all know the adage that 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. Having done their homework Maserati recommended Selenia Racing Oil for the 3200 and to the best of my knowledge it has never been blamed for any sort of engine failure on 3200's, and that is quite significant when you consider the implications of turbo technology, so why tempt fate and change to something else? If you are going racing it's a different matter, but you should then be carrying out oil and engine analysis on a frequent basis anyway.

Oil has come on in leaps and bounds in the last fifty years or so, but have the developments of the last 10 years been so significant as to discount Selenia? My guess is probably not.

PH 

< Message edited by Phil H -- 30/10/2010 10:47:02 >
30/10/2010 20:24:52  

Posts: 2481
Since: 27/1/2008
Region: Bristol
Status: online 		My 4200 has had Shell since new...I wonder if the change to shell was due to Ferrari tie in when the car/engine was designed?

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Peter

4200 CC
Volvo C70 Cabriolet
VW Golf mk1 Cabriolet
2CV LHD In France
31/10/2010 10:01:51  

Posts: 775
Since: 19/8/2007
Status: offline 		Quite possibly Peter but remember that Shell Super Helix is available in 10w60 and therefore Ferrari/Maserati would have recommended that if the 4200 required it. They didn't so it doesn't.

As for Phil's excellent post above, I must admit also to being surprised by Bob Houghton's staff "apparent" comment. I would think its more likely to have been a reference to what Maserati recommend TODAY for their cars ie models subsequent to the 3200 and not the 3200 itself. Even if this was the case, as good as BH is, I would still trust my own judgement and use what Maserati themselves has designed and developed the car to use. Ask yourself one simple question - Has the alternative been VALIDATED by extensive testing over 100s of thousands, if not millions of miles that Maserati did with Selenia Racing?

Bernard asked what I think of Agip Racing 10w60 that Eurospares sell. Some years back, my old friend James Pumo had just introduced me to Roberto Grimaldi who was half way through a Testa Rossa engine rebuild for James and in the process of setting up Grimaldi Engineering. A long chat on engine oil (including the 3200) followed during which Rob explained he was in the process of choosing a reliable supplier of top quality lubes for the workshop. In those days, Selenia Racing was sometimes difficult to obtain and Rob needed an alternative that he could safely recommend to Customers and could buy in large quantities. He would still try to stock Selenia (when he could get it) for those die hards like me who insisted on it. Together we went through detailed specs for both SR 10w60 and the various equivalents with AR 10w60 being selected as the nearest we could find. My final comment: Would I use AR if I could not find SR for a 3200 oil change - Yes, most definitely.

hope this helps 

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You can lead a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink
31/10/2010 11:26:36  
 

Posts: 147
Since: 23/6/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks Nigelo!

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Bernard
Maserati 3200GT AC (Manual)
1/11/2010 0:24:57  

Posts: 49
Since: 26/8/2010
Region: Williamstown
Status: offline 		Thought I'd share the results of a little research on the Alfa forum. Yes,Alfa recommend 10W60 for some models. Selenia oil expensive & sometimes difficult to obtain.
There are those who don't question the manufacturer's recommendation and stick with what they know- that's OK
The general opinion is that a 10W60 oil lowers the oil consumption which the Maserati owners handbook specifies.
Secondly.10W60 oil is probably a safety net if you're doing track days,rallies or you are a leadfoot.
Thirdly,use of 5W40 is quite OK provided you don't go mad with continuous high speed driving such as a circuit or a rally.
There was some talk about the Maser engine having generous bearing clearances when cold which a seriously goopy oil such as SAE 60 would help to preserve on startup. I checked the clearance specs. in the workshop manual. IMHO the 60 grade oil would be unlikely to flow through the bearings at all on cold start. Regardless of what grade oil used there must be oil flow thru the bearings at all times.
Shell Helix gets a good rap. Some misgivings about the current spec. for Selenia racing being not quite what it used to be.
In my opinion the 3200GT isn't a good track drive,so I'll be sticking with my race car for that. Probably a bit cumbersome for rally,but certainly a bit of fun in the "not-so-serious" category.
Verdict: continue with 5W40


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I thought I saw my name on a loaf of bread this morning,however it just said "thick cut"
1/11/2010 8:17:46  
 

Posts: 713
Since: 12/3/2007
Region: Hampshire
Status: offline 		I'm sure we all recognise the marketing ties such as that between Ferrari and Shell. However, engine designers aren't stupid and they may well specify oil brands and grades for good reason, especially for high performance engines.

Experimentation with oils is fine, the only problem being that by the time you discover your theory is wrong the damage is done. I suggest that it would be a very brave owner who ignores oil recommendations for a Maserati as the ultimate penalty for getting it wrong is an engine rebuild or replacement. For an Alfa that may be an affordable risk, for a Maserati it may not. Is it worth the gamble?

PH    
1/11/2010 22:09:10  

Posts: 49
Since: 26/8/2010
Region: Williamstown
Status: offline 		Maybe I should declare my hand - I come from 30 years experience in the oil industry at a technical level,quality control of lube oils & additives. I see the use of the 10W60 as a quick fix for the excessive oil consumption of the 3200 engine,some of the Alfa engines & maybe some Fiat lumps as well. The dickying with lube oils is so common it's a standing joke in the motor industry and it goes like this - if the engineers have stuffed up the engine design the first thing to get the blame is the oil quality.
There's simply no gamble involved in this case,a clear cut case of Maserati deciding they'd rather strangle the engine with excessively viscous oil rather than see owners running an engine with dangerously low oil level (as we all know Maser owners wouldn't dream of looking at the dipstick occasionally,that's for the "experts" at main dealers whose word is law)
Maserati have to protect their arse thanks to their relatives at Selenia.

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I thought I saw my name on a loaf of bread this morning,however it just said "thick cut"
2/11/2010 0:18:47  

Posts: 775
Since: 19/8/2007
Status: offline 		For someone that claims to come from an oil industry background, you do seem to have shot yourself in the foot despite my "guidance" at the beginning of this thread as to (a) SAE 60 is actually a STRAIGHT (non-multigrade oil) (b) that the "10" and NOT the "60" refers to the COLD start properties of that oil. To compound this you state "IMHO the 60 grade oil would be unlikely to flow through the bearings at all on cold start". The pour point of SR 10w60 happens to be less than -35C whereas Selenia Sport 5w40 (just a random lookup I made) has a pour point of less than -33C. I am not sure how cold it gets in Aussie but cold starts here are considerably warmer I think. In any event, since when did any 3200 suffer bearing failure other than thrusts?  

Despite my failed attempts to educate you, here you are again talking of SAE60 being "goupy" due to some anecdotal "research" on another internet forum. As an apparent oil industry technician, you are seemingly unaware that Selenia 10w60 is available in 2 grades - Plain Selenia and Selenia Racing both of which are used by Alfa in some of their models.   

But the above is glossing over yet another another hole in posts from an apparent oil industry tech - Maserati are "relatives" to Selenia!! Selenia is produced by FLSelenia which is wholly owned by Petronas (Malaysian Government) and parted company from Fiat over 30 years back. If you do not know who is who in your own industry then you may not be quite the authority you claim to be.

Finally, you state that "there was talk that" Maserati provided the 3200 with "generous" endfloat and that you have checked same. Well, the specs are between 6 and 8 thou, which is about the same IIRC as Ferrari used on their flat 12s and V8s over 30 years back. FWIW, Alfa used to specify between 3.5 thou and 10.5 thou on both 4 and 6 cylinder engines. Obviously you know better than the engine designers, NOT.

hope this helps   

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You can lead a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink
2/11/2010 5:07:06  

Posts: 49
Since: 26/8/2010
Region: Williamstown
Status: offline 		Wasn't looking for a slanging match. Hope others will gain something from what I found.

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I thought I saw my name on a loaf of bread this morning,however it just said "thick cut"
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